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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Robert Perry about his book signs a

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CMT II which stands for a conjunction of

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meaningfully parallel events it's

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basically an extreme form of

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synchronicity most of our paranormal

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events that we're studying now their

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inner experiences with hopefully a

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political component but in the end they

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say they seem stiffening about our

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abilities or our ultimate nature being

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perhaps immaterial but with science or

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CMPs

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they their statements seem to be more

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about something other than us that seems

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to be you know giving us messages I'm

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just not quite sure that we can make

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that last leap because there's this

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whole idea one of time that we talked

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about and precognition but also just in

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terms of being you and I and whoever

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being co-creators of our reality so we

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get back to this idea of what's reality

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and how is reality being created and

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experienced and again what's our

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relationship to time are we in the

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future creating our reality of the past

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I mean you know we shouldn't act like

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anything's percentages yet however I

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think that there is a contemporary bias

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even among those of us who are into the

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paranormal a bias against sort of agents

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that are beyond the human you know maybe

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if we take NDE seriously for instance it

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looks like that experience involves a

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certain amount of initiatives from the

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other side maybe something coming to the

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human level from the other side is part

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of how life works stay with us first

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to

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look at synchronicity in a new way in a

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scientific way our guest is Robert Perry

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I think the interviews pretty

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self-explanatory let's get right to it

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today we welcome back to skeptic Oh

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Robert Perry Roberts here to talk about

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his book signs a new approach to

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coincidence

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synchronicity guidance life purpose and

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God's plan and he's also here to tell us

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about a pilot study he's done about this

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work along with dr. Bruce Grayson

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that is suggestive that he really is on

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to something here so Robert thank you

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for joining me welcome back oh it's a

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great pleasure I'm very honored to be

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here I love the show and listen every

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week super in I I really appreciate

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you've made some great contributions on

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inform and on the Ansem on the comments

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section of the website I always look

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forward to reading your posts so it's

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great to have you back on so I have to

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say this book you've written it's

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amazing it's kind of startling when you

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get into it because you claim you've

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uncovered a rather remarkable new

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paranormal phenomena that you've coined

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CMP II so there's a lot here to kind of

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wrap our arms around why don't you start

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by telling us what you think you've

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uncovered here okay basically a CMT II

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which stands for a conjunction of

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meaningfully parallel events I call it a

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sign for short but because I used that

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word in a very non-standard way how many

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buddy else calls of those CMP II seems

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to be the the handle of choice

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it's basically an extreme form of

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synchronicity now synchronicity tends to

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be extremely subjective thing there's

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almost no rule for what constitutes a

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synchronicity but the pattern that we

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typically associate with synchronicity

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is two events coming together and

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sharing some striking similarity the the

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classic case is Carl Jung's scarab story

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where a patient is telling him about

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dream in which she's given a gold scared

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and as she does a gold scarab beetle is

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tapping at the

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window of Jung's office so there you

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have two events foretelling the dream

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the appearance of the Scarab and they

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both share one striking parallel which

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is a golden scarab right in and on the

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more just kind of day-to-day

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synchronicities that we're all familiar

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with so but you're going to take this

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way beyond that right it's a much more

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extreme version of that basic pattern

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you still have two events that just

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happen to come together in time they

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aren't brought together intentionally

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because of their similarity and with

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this phenomenon there are rules about

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how close together in time they need to

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be these two events are still strikingly

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similar but rather than one parallel

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between them like the golden scarab they

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actually share a long list of parallels

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that are objective that any observer can

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see and on average I find they share

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about eight or nine parallels examples

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go ahead give us a couple they're kind

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of long in the telling because of all

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the similarities between the events but

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one example is last August I was

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finishing the draft of the paper our

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pilot study that you mentioned on CMPs

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and the paper reports on us taking a

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paranormal experience synchronicity

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that's extremely difficult to study

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because of how subjects subjective it is

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and finding a way to objectively measure

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it so that we can then do an initial

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scientific study on it our study

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happened to work better than we expected

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and we were in fact able to show that

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something measurable is going on

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so within seconds of writing the last

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line of that draft I pick up Steve Volks

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book for an geology which I thought was

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a great book and I began a new chapter

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that I hadn't looked ahead to and this

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chapter was on the work of dr. Andrew

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Newberg who was famous for his research

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into the brain states associated with

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spiritual experiences like meditation

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and in that chapter Volk tells the story

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of Newberg's

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first experiment

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and Volk says the activity of meditation

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have always been supremely difficult to

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study the experience of meditation is

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purely subjective happening only the

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practitioners mind but Newberg thought

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he may have figured out a way to study

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it scientifically with no faith based

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assumptions and he did it by measuring

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what's going on in the brain of someone

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who's in a meditative state and the

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results were everything he wanted they

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showed a measurable and logical

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correlation between the experience of

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the meditator and what was going on in

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his brain and so I I just felt that that

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was extremely similar to I just written

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and so I wrote a list of parallels and I

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can read them too if you like sure go

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ahead

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okay so in both events my paper and the

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chapter in whren geology there is some

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paranormal or spiritual experience in

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one case synchronicity in the other

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meditative experience that's been around

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for ages it's extremely it's thought to

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be extremely or supremely quote

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difficult to study in that phrases in

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both things because of how subjective it

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is when the throughly a researcher comes

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up with the latest Cuddy is

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scientifically without faith-based

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assumptions then before he conducts the

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first tests that were done

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number five prominent in in this test if

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someone named Robert in Newberg's test

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it was the subject that was named Robert

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number six being the first test the

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researcher is not sure it will work but

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the results are either better than

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expected in our case or quote all he

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could all he could reasonably have

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wanted in the other case number seven

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these results in some sense validate the

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experience at least showing that

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something physical and measurable is

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going on

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and number a in both cases this is said

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to ultimately have bearing on the

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question of God's existence wait because

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I don't want to get too nitpicky on

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those but I think I or a number of

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people could could look at it and say

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well a couple of those are there's some

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more ordinary prosaic kind of

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explanations for why those things might

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be coincidental right that that that's

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necessarily a bad example but we could

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get into the fact that the fields are

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kind of related the book was there you

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know there's all these things so is

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there another example you could maybe

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give us well one example is the one I

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begin the book with which is CMP that I

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call the bucket brigade and what's

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happening there is of course the miracle

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organization that I that I work for

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we're processing the issue of whether to

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basically take a departure in a new

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direction and somebody comes up with

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this image of everybody in the

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organization forming a bucket brigade

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you know where everyone's working

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together you're passing buckets of water

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along to put a fire out and rather than

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each of us doing sort of our separate

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thing in our separate space we're all

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joined together in this really intense

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kind of common endeavor and this

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suggestion is meant to be relevant to

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figuring out the organizational

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direction that you should go right

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that's exactly right yeah and if we were

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considering a departure in this

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direction so what happened was at that

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moment we hear the sound of water and we

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we were in a downstairs area and the

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house he rushed into the other room and

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there's literally water pouring through

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the ceiling in a straight line

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it turns out later we found that a

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washing machine repairman had been

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upstairs and he'd turned the wrong knob

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and there was water that that came

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through an unfinished ceiling and so

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everybody explaining to action people in

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the meeting you're having people who

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were working in the office upstairs and

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the other thing to do it was those

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actually right next to where the water

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was following a stack of plastic buckets

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and so we had to essentially arrange

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these buckets in a straight line to

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catch the water until it could be turned

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off and you know and everybody's joined

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together in this and we're mopping it up

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and getting towels and everything and

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and of course it was an intense

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experience and it wasn't until we we all

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we're done with it got back in annex

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room took a breath and we thought he

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that was kind of weird we just formed a

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line of water filled buckets in response

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to an emergency in which everyone's

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pulling together in the organization not

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in their separate spaces it was exactly

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what we just been talking about in the

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meeting but we in this case we'd had to

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actually carry out the exact thing we've

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been talking about possibly doing great

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so that's a very concrete example they

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both are concrete examples that will

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give people an idea I think of what

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you're talking about

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so maybe take just a minute and tell us

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about the the methodology that you use

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for trying to understand this because

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that's what you break down in the book

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and in your paper you know that's what

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makes this a little bit different as you

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alluded to in your first example you're

277
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,660
really trying to nail this down

278
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:13,920
scientifically in a way that we can

279
00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:16,800
study it and try and understand it right

280
00:12:23,180 --> 00:12:19,080
so tell us a little bit about your

281
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:23,190
methodology for understanding it as

282
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:25,410
you're alluding it's very rural based

283
00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:29,610
phenomenon and I worked out the rules

284
00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:31,860
I'm still looking at the rules but to

285
00:12:38,030 --> 00:12:34,280
the extent that I have I've done it over

286
00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:38,040
35 years and recording hundreds I think

287
00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:42,030
going on a thousand examples of it the

288
00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:44,190
rules as I understand them are that you

289
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:45,990
need those two events you need to list

290
00:12:52,130 --> 00:12:49,440
the parallels the parallels then will

291
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:52,140
come together to tell a coherent story

292
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:55,200
there won't be a scattered list and that

293
00:13:01,280 --> 00:12:58,560
coherent story will always be aimed at a

294
00:13:03,410 --> 00:13:01,290
relevant situation in your life that

295
00:13:06,110 --> 00:13:03,420
situation will almost always be

296
00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:06,120
contained in one or both of the two

297
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:08,910
events so one of the events might be

298
00:13:12,950 --> 00:13:11,010
fictional it might be like you mentioned

299
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,960
a movie that you watched but the other

300
00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:15,120
event will usually involve a situation

301
00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:16,680
that you're wrestling with there may be

302
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:19,020
some question involved you may have made

303
00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:20,880
a decision about date that you're still

304
00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:23,880
uncertain about it will be current and

305
00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:26,910
so what happens is the parallels come

306
00:13:31,580 --> 00:13:27,960
together to tell

307
00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:31,590
a coherent story and that story tends to

308
00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:34,590
frame that situation in a certain way

309
00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:37,320
and communicate a certain perspective on

310
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:39,950
it so that's one source of the meaning

311
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:44,010
behind this enpe the other source is a

312
00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:47,040
little bit different and it's not always

313
00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:49,950
operative but in Macy M Pease one of the

314
00:13:54,770 --> 00:13:52,680
events literally involves that situation

315
00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:54,780
of relevance in your life the other

316
00:14:01,130 --> 00:13:59,010
event eerily mirror is it but involves a

317
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:01,140
whole other situation does not relevant

318
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:02,940
for you like I said it may be a

319
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:06,570
fictional situation now interestingly

320
00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:10,050
enough the be fictional or the non

321
00:14:17,660 --> 00:14:12,990
relevant situation will usually tend to

322
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:17,670
contain the answers to the questions in

323
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:20,490
the real life situation that concerns

324
00:14:25,850 --> 00:14:23,040
you so you may be wondering what to do

325
00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:25,860
in your situation in that other

326
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:28,200
situation what to do has already been

327
00:14:34,130 --> 00:14:32,250
done and it's all resolved so so I call

328
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:34,140
that the symbolic situation and the

329
00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:36,810
symbolic situation then offers

330
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:39,900
commentary on the uncertainties and the

331
00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:42,930
unresolved aspects of the literal

332
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:45,180
situation so what you do is you put

333
00:14:51,380 --> 00:14:47,010
together those two sources of meaning

334
00:14:53,150 --> 00:14:51,390
the delay the parallel frame the the

335
00:14:55,820 --> 00:14:53,160
situation looks you call the subject

336
00:14:59,060 --> 00:14:55,830
situation and then the way the symbolic

337
00:15:01,580 --> 00:14:59,070
situation frames that same situation and

338
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:01,590
when you put those together you get a

339
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:03,720
pretty clear message about your

340
00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:05,910
situation and it's a message that

341
00:15:10,190 --> 00:15:07,590
different interpreters who know the

342
00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:10,200
rules will read in the same way and

343
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,580
that's something I've tested and

344
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:14,160
experienced over and over can get two

345
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:16,860
independent interpreters coming up with

346
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:19,110
basically the same message and that's

347
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:21,330
what makes you feel that there's some

348
00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:23,610
realness to it so you're you're coming

349
00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:26,940
along here saying okay if you take if

350
00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:29,430
you pay attention you'll notice that

351
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,640
these things happen in our lives and

352
00:15:36,260 --> 00:15:34,560
then you throw this out there and people

353
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:36,270
read it and hear about and go wow you

354
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:38,370
know I never really quite noticed it but

355
00:15:41,980 --> 00:15:41,040
yeah there are these parallel events

356
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:41,990
that have

357
00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:44,480
a lot of coincidences that seemed to be

358
00:15:49,780 --> 00:15:47,540
the madacorp driven towards a problem

359
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:49,790
and there's some realness to it okay so

360
00:15:54,369 --> 00:15:51,860
that's really cool I think that you've

361
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:54,379
identified this phenomenon and you

362
00:15:59,290 --> 00:15:57,170
developed a methodology for trying to

363
00:16:01,300 --> 00:15:59,300
study it and I guess that would get to

364
00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:01,310
this study that you've done this pilot

365
00:16:06,759 --> 00:16:04,550
study how will you find kind of close

366
00:16:10,059 --> 00:16:06,769
the loop and really nail down that this

367
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:10,069
is really happening yes good question

368
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:13,250
well for me you know I've seen this

369
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:16,160
happen on more or less a weekly basis

370
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,370
for 30 years now so I don't have my own

371
00:16:24,249 --> 00:16:22,160
doubts about it I've also worked with

372
00:16:27,009 --> 00:16:24,259
these events in the lives of quite a few

373
00:16:31,210 --> 00:16:27,019
other people that I know for a long time

374
00:16:33,610 --> 00:16:31,220
as well so from personal experience I

375
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:33,620
know it happens and it's not just people

376
00:16:37,629 --> 00:16:36,050
you know very close to me it's I've read

377
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:37,639
about these things and lives of

378
00:16:43,090 --> 00:16:40,370
strangers I had an instance a couple

379
00:16:44,170 --> 00:16:43,100
months ago where an MBE researcher who's

380
00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:44,180
actually been on your show

381
00:16:49,329 --> 00:16:47,180
she had one we correspond about it she

382
00:16:51,429 --> 00:16:49,339
found the meaning surprising but really

383
00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:51,439
appropriate so I've seen it happen so

384
00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:53,809
many times in so many lives I don't have

385
00:16:58,689 --> 00:16:56,360
doubts about it but obviously is not

386
00:17:01,179 --> 00:16:58,699
good enough for somebody who's not me so

387
00:17:04,270 --> 00:17:01,189
we did this pilot study as you mentioned

388
00:17:07,179 --> 00:17:04,280
in which we got 17 participants and the

389
00:17:09,539 --> 00:17:07,189
whole point was to see is this happening

390
00:17:13,569 --> 00:17:09,549
in the lives of people out there and

391
00:17:15,970 --> 00:17:13,579
that was the entire goal of the study so

392
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:15,980
we taught them how to notice these

393
00:17:21,309 --> 00:17:19,039
events and they recorded anything that

394
00:17:23,620 --> 00:17:21,319
seemed like it might be for a period of

395
00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:23,630
four months sent them in to me and then

396
00:17:29,289 --> 00:17:26,049
we ran them through a ten-point scale

397
00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:29,299
that basically scores them to see if

398
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:31,990
they if they qualify and we did find

399
00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:36,320
actually 16 genuine cmp es through the

400
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,350
study which for me goes along well it's

401
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:41,600
an initial study you know it's a pilot

402
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:43,610
study it's not going to I think

403
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:46,370
established a phenomenon for anybody who

404
00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:49,970
has any kind of skepticism but at least

405
00:17:55,630 --> 00:17:52,630
it's a promising initial study

406
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:55,640
suggestive of this being a general event

407
00:18:02,590 --> 00:17:58,640
happens all over and how would you

408
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:02,600
measure statistically the odds against

409
00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:05,810
chance of these events occurring how do

410
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:09,140
you nail that part down you know I wish

411
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:12,080
there was a way to do that I don't

412
00:18:16,060 --> 00:18:14,180
personally believe there is a way to

413
00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:16,070
really measure the probabilities

414
00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:18,620
involved I think it's too complicated I

415
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:21,820
think the strength of it comes in in

416
00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:25,490
reading the lists of parallels and and

417
00:18:31,390 --> 00:18:28,070
taken as a whole thinking is it

418
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:31,400
reasonable to suspect that that two

419
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:34,010
events that would this parallel could

420
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:36,320
come together purely by chance the other

421
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:40,790
thing which to me really helps you know

422
00:18:45,850 --> 00:18:42,890
put out of consideration the skeptical

423
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:45,860
alternative here is that these things in

424
00:18:53,050 --> 00:18:48,610
my experience are never one offs a

425
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:53,060
particular CME will always be part of a

426
00:18:59,200 --> 00:18:56,390
series other CNTs will speak to the same

427
00:19:02,920 --> 00:18:59,210
situation and will say consistent things

428
00:19:04,930 --> 00:19:02,930
in fact similar CMT's will often occur

429
00:19:06,610 --> 00:19:04,940
on the exact same date in different

430
00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:06,620
years which is something I discovered

431
00:19:11,530 --> 00:19:08,780
and continues to kind of blow me away

432
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:11,540
when it happens so that so different

433
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:14,570
ones are intimately interrelated and

434
00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:16,610
therefore you don't have to you have to

435
00:19:22,270 --> 00:19:19,340
explain away not just one to explain

436
00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:22,280
away the whole series and at some point

437
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:24,440
I think a reasonable a reasonable person

438
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:27,290
stands there and says this just can't be

439
00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:30,290
chance right and we should add because I

440
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:32,990
can maybe glossed over that but the the

441
00:19:38,290 --> 00:19:34,970
methodology that you have or that you

442
00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:38,300
applied in this study for example is

443
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:40,070
pretty rigorous I mean there's some

444
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:42,050
definite rules that you mentioned that

445
00:19:46,270 --> 00:19:43,730
they have to follow and they have to be

446
00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:46,280
inside of a certain time frame and they

447
00:19:50,860 --> 00:19:48,590
have to follow other characteristics and

448
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:50,870
it's pretty I think you said that you

449
00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:54,230
have an independent judge or evaluator

450
00:19:58,690 --> 00:19:55,700
who can kind of say whether they meet

451
00:20:01,930 --> 00:19:58,700
that criteria and anyone who reads the

452
00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:01,940
book signs or reads this study will see

453
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:04,340
that it is quite objective in terms of

454
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:10,950
the key things about the phenomenon I

455
00:20:15,390 --> 00:20:13,690
used to see patterns and all kinds of

456
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:15,400
events and think they were coincidences

457
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:18,310
around every corner and and as I went

458
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:19,120
forward

459
00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:21,130
I became personally quite skeptical

460
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:23,070
about most synchronicities I think

461
00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:25,450
personally that most of them are us

462
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:27,070
connecting dots that aren't connected

463
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:29,470
that's just my personal opinion what I

464
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:33,190
found was this phenomenon proved itself

465
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:35,710
to me as real all the time and showed

466
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:37,510
that it had quite specific

467
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:39,760
characteristics and so that's how I

468
00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:42,310
built the model and built the ten-point

469
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:45,040
scale for for measuring them trying to

470
00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:47,650
capture those specific characteristics

471
00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:50,500
without them if they aren't there you

472
00:20:56,430 --> 00:20:53,950
can tell this is not a real cm te so

473
00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:56,440
yeah it's very rigorous which is quite

474
00:21:00,240 --> 00:20:58,450
different than the mindset we normally

475
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:00,250
have lot of synchronicity but the

476
00:21:03,690 --> 00:21:02,050
advantage of course is you could have

477
00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:03,700
some confidence of something real is

478
00:21:08,490 --> 00:21:05,320
going on here and we aren't just

479
00:21:11,610 --> 00:21:08,500
connecting dots in a fanciful way okay

480
00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:11,620
but you just hit on maybe the key phrase

481
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:13,980
that I wanted to launch into is that

482
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:16,690
something real is going on here of

483
00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:19,930
course real is a very is the ultimate

484
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:23,380
subjective term in terms of reality and

485
00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:26,440
I guess that gets us into how should we

486
00:21:32,670 --> 00:21:30,280
understand this phenomena you and I in

487
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:32,680
the email exchange before this were both

488
00:21:38,670 --> 00:21:35,140
referencing you know Daryl BEM work of

489
00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:38,680
course because it gets at this issue of

490
00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:41,140
time and what is really our relationship

491
00:21:45,770 --> 00:21:43,240
with time as I was reading through the

492
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:45,780
science thing I kept thinking this is

493
00:21:52,170 --> 00:21:49,330
precognition in some way so again it

494
00:21:55,950 --> 00:21:52,180
gets to this time thing and we might be

495
00:21:59,670 --> 00:21:55,960
experiencing time linearly but the

496
00:22:01,980 --> 00:21:59,680
reality of time may it may not be as

497
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:01,990
linear as we think so what are your

498
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:05,770
thoughts on that I well actually I had a

499
00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:08,290
pair of psychologists suggest something

500
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:10,270
similar to me that this was precognition

501
00:22:15,870 --> 00:22:14,320
and I think that can work for some of

502
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:15,880
the examples I think it gets very

503
00:22:25,890 --> 00:22:21,450
strange for some of them as well because

504
00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:25,900
in why are the examples you have you

505
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:27,700
have different people doing things at a

506
00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:29,320
distance you know somebody might send me

507
00:22:34,380 --> 00:22:32,980
an email in this case you know who's

508
00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:34,390
having the precognition

509
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:36,640
they're just there's a lot of examples

510
00:22:41,370 --> 00:22:38,770
where I think that doesn't work that

511
00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:41,380
well and what I want to say about trying

512
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:44,380
to explain this and obviously cried out

513
00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:46,570
for an explanation is that in our

514
00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:48,100
attempt to explain it I think there's

515
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:49,990
two things that we should keep in mind

516
00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:52,810
one is that we shouldn't just

517
00:22:57,390 --> 00:22:55,420
cherry-pick certain elements of it and

518
00:23:00,960 --> 00:22:57,400
try to explain those and ignore the rest

519
00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:00,970
and then the other is that we shouldn't

520
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:04,180
come to it I think with the constraints

521
00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:06,430
of our particular worldview and say well

522
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:08,470
only explanations within that worldview

523
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:11,110
are ok here I think we should look at

524
00:23:16,350 --> 00:23:14,290
the phenomenon as a whole and see what

525
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:16,360
the phenomena itself suggests in terms

526
00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:20,230
of you know best explanations and when I

527
00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:24,460
look at it as a whole what I see is it

528
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:27,580
looks like events are being somehow

529
00:23:34,670 --> 00:23:31,420
pulled together in in highly

530
00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:34,680
orchestrated ways and in ways that

531
00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:37,080
appear to be structured as

532
00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:39,700
communications these things always

533
00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:43,030
highlight some situation in your life

534
00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:45,220
that you're dealing with and then they

535
00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:46,840
provide a perspective on it a

536
00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:49,390
perspective that very often is targeted

537
00:23:54,570 --> 00:23:51,880
or seems to be targeted at the very

538
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:54,580
things that you're wrestling with so

539
00:24:01,440 --> 00:23:57,090
these things look like they are

540
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:01,450
communications or structured as that so

541
00:24:08,730 --> 00:24:04,270
in my mind an explanation would have to

542
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:08,740
ideally honor that basic design of the

543
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:11,410
phenomenon itself so even now Robert

544
00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:13,510
you're creeping into this more

545
00:24:17,910 --> 00:24:16,150
controversial aspect of this and it's in

546
00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:17,920
the title of the book and it's also in

547
00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:19,900
the chapter in the book and that's this

548
00:24:26,670 --> 00:24:23,680
idea of life's purpose and gods the G

549
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:26,680
words plan you know the last time

550
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:29,530
whenever I bring up the issue of God and

551
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:31,120
I usually talk about God as a

552
00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:35,120
placeholder for this idea of some organ

553
00:24:40,340 --> 00:24:37,350
consciousness some higher-level

554
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:40,350
organized consciousness I get a lot of

555
00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:42,390
pushback a lot of people are resistant

556
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:45,030
to that a lot of people feel very burned

557
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:48,210
by Christianity it's really what it

558
00:24:54,289 --> 00:24:50,900
usually comes down to or some other

559
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:54,299
religion but it's usually this idea that

560
00:24:59,600 --> 00:24:56,610
hey I was slammed with this Christian

561
00:25:01,640 --> 00:24:59,610
crap when I was a kid and it took me 20

562
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,650
years of therapy to overcome it please

563
00:25:04,909 --> 00:25:04,320
don't try and shove God back down my

564
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:04,919
throat

565
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:08,400
that's the pushback I get and I have to

566
00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:10,620
say there's a little bit of that that I

567
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:12,870
felt here I felt a need to push back a

568
00:25:17,690 --> 00:25:15,210
little bit - I mean can we really make

569
00:25:20,510 --> 00:25:17,700
that leap that you're making and saying

570
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:20,520
that because you see some kind of a

571
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:22,799
relationship between the person that's

572
00:25:27,950 --> 00:25:25,679
experiencing the coincidence and some

573
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:27,960
kind of structure information message in

574
00:25:32,539 --> 00:25:30,120
what they're experiencing it can we

575
00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:32,549
really put God right in the middle of

576
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:36,630
that well I think I think we don't have

577
00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:39,960
to you know for me there's a phenomenon

578
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:43,260
here that needs to be explained and for

579
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:45,600
most of my time with it I didn't see

580
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:48,510
this coming from God my interest was

581
00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:50,970
really more practical I was just wanting

582
00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:52,980
to work with it get the benefits of it

583
00:25:57,620 --> 00:25:54,900
and I kind of assumed it was coming from

584
00:26:00,860 --> 00:25:57,630
some wise place in my unconscious that

585
00:26:03,049 --> 00:26:00,870
could somehow maybe you know draw vents

586
00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:03,059
together to get a message across to me

587
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:04,950
and I still think that's a reasonable

588
00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:08,370
explanation there's a couple of reasons

589
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:10,590
why I've gone in the god direction

590
00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:15,330
personally one is that I started to

591
00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:18,929
notice that if different people had CMT

592
00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:21,030
ease about the same situation even

593
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:23,190
people who were living you know hundreds

594
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:26,370
of thousands of miles apart their CMP

595
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:28,289
ease would be consistent with each other

596
00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:31,049
and sometimes quite minutely related as

597
00:26:36,380 --> 00:26:33,900
if they were coming from the same source

598
00:26:39,470 --> 00:26:36,390
so I started to think well whatever the

599
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:39,480
source is it clearly transcends the

600
00:26:44,659 --> 00:26:42,090
individual mind in which case maybe we

601
00:26:47,149 --> 00:26:44,669
can posit you know a collective

602
00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:47,159
unconscious or something that is the

603
00:26:49,419 --> 00:26:47,750
source of

604
00:26:51,850 --> 00:26:49,429
and I think that would be consistent

605
00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:51,860
with the data as well let me nail that

606
00:26:58,110 --> 00:26:54,340
down a minute so a collective

607
00:27:01,330 --> 00:26:58,120
unconscious a collective consciousness

608
00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:01,340
would fit here you and and then I guess

609
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:03,950
the question related to that is what is

610
00:27:10,690 --> 00:27:07,760
God for you in that continuum if you

611
00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:10,700
will uh if you're falling back to the

612
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,030
collective consciousness then what is

613
00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:16,640
the relationship between your

614
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:18,500
understanding of God and your

615
00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:20,030
understanding of this collective

616
00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:24,230
consciousness well I don't I don't

617
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:26,860
really personally think that that

618
00:27:32,649 --> 00:27:30,350
collective unconscious explanations the

619
00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:32,659
thing behind this I'm saying I think

620
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:35,780
it's a racer interpretation that I think

621
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:39,230
is reasonable I I personally see it as

622
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:42,590
coming from God my idea of God is very

623
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:45,140
much what people experience for instance

624
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:49,610
in near-death experiences so I you know

625
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:52,850
I see something I see God is very much

626
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:56,330
you know some kind of a being who's

627
00:28:01,330 --> 00:27:58,850
maybe boundless and formless but still

628
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:01,340
you know alive and in some sense

629
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:03,650
personal I don't think that s required

630
00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:06,799
at all to work with this phenomenon to

631
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:09,140
explore it I think that there's all

632
00:28:13,299 --> 00:28:11,690
kinds of possible explanations but

633
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:13,309
there's two things like you come back to

634
00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:16,370
one is the phenomenon itself pushes me

635
00:28:21,490 --> 00:28:18,760
in the direction of something godlike

636
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:21,500
maybe it's something that falls short of

637
00:28:26,289 --> 00:28:23,510
being what we would call God but the

638
00:28:29,919 --> 00:28:26,299
phenomena itself I think suggests

639
00:28:31,690 --> 00:28:29,929
something godlike number two a lot of

640
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:31,700
what's pushed me in the extreme

641
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:33,650
direction I've gone in is the CMT's

642
00:28:40,539 --> 00:28:37,610
themselves I started to get them about

643
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:40,549
about thirteen years ago I started to

644
00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:43,370
get one that clearly we're saying they

645
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:45,230
came from God that the phenomena itself

646
00:28:51,010 --> 00:28:48,530
comes from God and because I built up a

647
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:51,020
trust with with these instances over

648
00:28:56,260 --> 00:28:54,260
many years I I kind of went with it hey

649
00:28:57,789 --> 00:28:56,270
Robert give me an example there nailed

650
00:29:00,970 --> 00:28:57,799
that down for me what do you mean you

651
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:00,980
had a direct experience or message that

652
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:01,490
this was

653
00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:04,370
from God you know as I said that the CMP

654
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:05,870
ease when you read them according to the

655
00:29:10,510 --> 00:29:07,850
rules they end up communicating certain

656
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:10,520
messages I started to get the occasional

657
00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:15,230
CMP II whose message was actually they

658
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:17,150
were talking about me writing the book

659
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:18,770
that I eventually wrote many years later

660
00:29:24,460 --> 00:29:21,350
and they kept saying essentially

661
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:24,470
emphasize in the book that this comes

662
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:26,870
from God and Ethan wanted me to end the

663
00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:29,380
book on that no I know it sounds like an

664
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:31,280
anthropomorphizing them but that's just

665
00:29:36,130 --> 00:29:32,690
how I experienced them they're they're

666
00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:36,140
giving me messages so I I do relate

667
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:39,020
those in the book one of them was where

668
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:41,690
I was writing to somebody a long account

669
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:43,990
of my understanding of the phenomenon

670
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:46,010
you know there was their first encounter

671
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:50,330
with it and I was talking about how you

672
00:29:54,940 --> 00:29:52,100
know it's a strange thing because it

673
00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:54,950
looks like you know in a skeptical age

674
00:29:59,710 --> 00:29:56,660
it looks like here is something that

675
00:30:01,090 --> 00:29:59,720
that seems to come from from God or

676
00:30:05,169 --> 00:30:01,100
God's plan or something in that

677
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:05,179
direction and you know it seems like

678
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:06,980
it's God speaking to us even though we

679
00:30:12,790 --> 00:30:09,770
aren't listening and right after that I

680
00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:12,800
ended up watching a TV program I used to

681
00:30:19,660 --> 00:30:15,080
be into the x-files and so as an episode

682
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:19,670
of the x-files in which the show which I

683
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:21,650
caught the very tail end up concludes on

684
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:25,490
an uncannily similar note the one of the

685
00:30:29,260 --> 00:30:27,130
main characters is and experiencing

686
00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:29,270
amazing a dense over the course of the

687
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:32,840
show and she ends up feeling like you

688
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:34,490
know God is speaking and no one's

689
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:38,090
listening so it was things like that the

690
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:39,679
started to push me in a direction that I

691
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:42,710
actually hadn't gone in quite yet and

692
00:30:47,919 --> 00:30:45,410
when I did do what they said and make

693
00:30:49,660 --> 00:30:47,929
that the ending of a book I had as a

694
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:49,670
confirmation of that one of the most

695
00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:52,010
spectacular CMPs I've ever had they're

696
00:30:58,510 --> 00:30:54,440
about thirty parallels which I made the

697
00:31:01,060 --> 00:30:58,520
epilogue of the book eventually and so

698
00:31:04,030 --> 00:31:01,070
those both actually help take me there

699
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:04,040
even though I'm adamant that you don't

700
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:07,370
need to start there or even end there to

701
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:08,690
look with the phenomena and think

702
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:09,710
something's happening

703
00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:12,010
tell us how that's informed your

704
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:15,560
understanding of God on a personal base

705
00:31:22,510 --> 00:31:18,650
what will you take away big picture wise

706
00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:22,520
in terms of what this means about God

707
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:25,520
and how God is involved in your life

708
00:31:31,420 --> 00:31:27,530
that's an interesting question not sure

709
00:31:35,410 --> 00:31:31,430
that asks that before the background is

710
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:35,420
I I do I I do really take these

711
00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:39,170
seriously as the most important the most

712
00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:41,060
authoritative influence in my own

713
00:31:44,590 --> 00:31:42,980
personal decision-making they don't

714
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,600
happen on command they don't happen

715
00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:46,880
everyday but when they do happen I take

716
00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:49,670
them very seriously and to a large

717
00:31:53,860 --> 00:31:52,100
degree I live my life by them they have

718
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:53,870
proven themselves very trustworthy

719
00:31:58,750 --> 00:31:55,910
that's why actually I'm living in

720
00:32:03,130 --> 00:31:58,760
England now as I I had the MDEs till I

721
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:03,140
moved here with my with my family so as

722
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:06,890
a result of their influence I basically

723
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:09,170
feel like there is something which is

724
00:32:15,070 --> 00:32:11,690
usually quite anonymous that there's

725
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:15,080
something that is advising me that wants

726
00:32:21,220 --> 00:32:18,050
me to move in in positive directions

727
00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:21,230
that end up being healthy and good for

728
00:32:27,910 --> 00:32:24,200
me and for those around me whatever this

729
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:27,920
is is concerned about small situations

730
00:32:33,490 --> 00:32:30,230
in my life I was told after 25 years ago

731
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:33,500
back and see the dentist and large ones

732
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:37,430
my spiritual development my work my my

733
00:32:42,730 --> 00:32:40,130
close relationships whatever this is

734
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:42,740
seems really concerned about every

735
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:45,260
aspect of my life and really intent on

736
00:32:51,490 --> 00:32:48,470
giving me clarity and an vision for

737
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:51,500
those different areas in my life and so

738
00:32:58,660 --> 00:32:55,760
a lot of my own tangible sense of God

739
00:33:01,300 --> 00:32:58,670
comes from the feeling that there's just

740
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:01,310
something looking out for me and wanting

741
00:33:07,180 --> 00:33:04,310
to impart to me the clarity and the

742
00:33:10,270 --> 00:33:07,190
wisdom and sometimes even the foresight

743
00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:10,280
that can help me along my way so I end

744
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:12,710
up actually feeling very cared for so

745
00:33:17,890 --> 00:33:14,870
where do you go from here Robert where

746
00:33:19,870 --> 00:33:17,900
do you go with the research with the

747
00:33:22,570 --> 00:33:19,880
results of the pilot study and where

748
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:22,580
would you like to see the the research

749
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:26,810
into the phenomena go yeah I I really

750
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:29,120
want to see this go somewhere

751
00:33:34,810 --> 00:33:32,930
the CMT's themselves daily think this

752
00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:34,820
was going to be some kind of field of

753
00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:37,670
inquiry one day along the lines of

754
00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:39,950
near-death studies I think we're quite a

755
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:41,900
long ways off from that to be honest but

756
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:43,730
they have very long range point of view

757
00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:45,890
so I'm not going to be surprised if that

758
00:33:52,450 --> 00:33:49,670
happens I think that the next step is is

759
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:52,460
just to keep studying it we've got a I

760
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:56,090
think this time get a funded study week

761
00:34:01,270 --> 00:33:58,880
that we can construct very carefully

762
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:01,280
using we learn from the first study has

763
00:34:06,430 --> 00:34:04,610
very tight controls deal with questions

764
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:06,440
like independence which is one of the

765
00:34:14,350 --> 00:34:08,510
big Bugaboo here were the events really

766
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:14,360
independent and just do it more

767
00:34:21,970 --> 00:34:17,200
carefully you know more independent

768
00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:21,980
scores and observers and just slowly I

769
00:34:26,169 --> 00:34:24,139
think try to push it out there my

770
00:34:28,389 --> 00:34:26,179
experience is that this is such a

771
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:28,399
different sort of phenomenon than we're

772
00:34:32,619 --> 00:34:31,129
currently studying and different than

773
00:34:34,270 --> 00:34:32,629
how we think of synchronicity that I

774
00:34:36,010 --> 00:34:34,280
think people have a hard time just

775
00:34:39,970 --> 00:34:36,020
getting it to kind of click into place

776
00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:39,980
in their brains and along those lines do

777
00:34:45,070 --> 00:34:42,260
you have any thoughts on why certain

778
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:45,080
people are experiencing CMP ease and

779
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:46,970
others are not or anything like that

780
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:49,370
that's obviously a really important

781
00:34:55,649 --> 00:34:52,129
question and it is clear to me that

782
00:34:58,240 --> 00:34:55,659
different people my wife and I call them

783
00:35:01,300 --> 00:34:58,250
sign magnets different people are real

784
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:01,310
sign magnets for some reason I don't

785
00:35:06,970 --> 00:35:04,850
know why I get a great deal of them more

786
00:35:09,460 --> 00:35:06,980
than other people I know I don't know

787
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:09,470
why it is I'm not a psychic person I'm

788
00:35:13,660 --> 00:35:11,690
not a person given to spiritual

789
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:13,670
experiences I mean I'm a really classic

790
00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:17,690
left brain guy but some get more and

791
00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:20,840
some seem to never get them the woman in

792
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:23,870
our study the one woman I was 17 people

793
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:26,210
who got virtually a third of all the

794
00:35:32,170 --> 00:35:28,730
recorded examples that we had and she is

795
00:35:34,330 --> 00:35:32,180
an end a year and I somehow connected

796
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:34,340
with that but she and I have very

797
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:35,930
different kinds of people she's totally

798
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:38,480
right man I'm totally left brain so I'm

799
00:35:42,070 --> 00:35:41,210
not really sure what attracts them to

800
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:42,080
some

801
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:44,710
not other it it's interesting just to

802
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:49,040
kind of speculate the the NDE that you

803
00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:50,570
mentioned you know opening people up

804
00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:53,660
psychically I'd be interested in people

805
00:36:00,340 --> 00:35:56,630
who experience precognitive dreams or

806
00:36:02,890 --> 00:36:00,350
other kind of paranormal experiences

807
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:02,900
what their relationship is or frequency

808
00:36:07,210 --> 00:36:05,270
of having these sign experiences there's

809
00:36:08,590 --> 00:36:07,220
all sorts of interesting questions it

810
00:36:10,450 --> 00:36:08,600
certainly is

811
00:36:14,380 --> 00:36:10,460
refreshing that you're approaching this

812
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:14,390
from both a personal spiritual aspect

813
00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:16,490
which i think is very brave on your part

814
00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:19,190
and at the same time pursuing it on a

815
00:36:23,950 --> 00:36:22,180
parallel path that asks these questions

816
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:23,960
scientifically and I think there's

817
00:36:29,350 --> 00:36:26,690
there's some great great work to be done

818
00:36:31,390 --> 00:36:29,360
there too so it's it's just really great

819
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:31,400
and I hope people dig into it and I'm

820
00:36:36,820 --> 00:36:34,480
sure that this will generate a lot more

821
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:36,830
CNP ease from people I think it's the

822
00:36:42,490 --> 00:36:38,450
kind of thing that once you hear about

823
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:42,500
it you see them much more than you would

824
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:44,720
then before when you didn't know about

825
00:36:48,490 --> 00:36:46,310
it I'm sure you have plenty of stories

826
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:48,500
of that right it's true and they are

827
00:36:54,820 --> 00:36:51,440
very easy to overlook because some are

828
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:54,830
obvious but some for some you have to

829
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:56,870
have a kind of a pattern state of mind

830
00:37:00,670 --> 00:36:58,610
where you're looking for not a single

831
00:37:04,810 --> 00:37:00,680
striking thing but for the whole pattern

832
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:04,820
and those can blow by very easily I like

833
00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:06,410
the the forward to the book because I

834
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:08,420
felt the same way you know there's at

835
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:10,610
first there's this kind of desire to

836
00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:13,010
push against it and go but then the more

837
00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:15,260
you dig into it I I think it's it's

838
00:37:20,410 --> 00:37:17,630
rather remarkable that you've kind of

839
00:37:22,690 --> 00:37:20,420
identified this little paranormal

840
00:37:24,820 --> 00:37:22,700
phenomena that I'm sure other people

841
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:24,830
have kind of seen but no one's really

842
00:37:29,650 --> 00:37:26,870
nailed down and the way that you have so

843
00:37:32,140 --> 00:37:29,660
that's most of our paranormal events

844
00:37:34,180 --> 00:37:32,150
that we're studying now their inner

845
00:37:36,970 --> 00:37:34,190
experiences with hopefully a political

846
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:36,980
component but in the end they say they

847
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:39,920
seem Sisson about our abilities or our

848
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:43,040
ultimate nature being perhaps immaterial

849
00:37:47,470 --> 00:37:45,200
but with science or CMPs

850
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:47,480
they their statements seem to be more

851
00:37:53,350 --> 00:37:50,240
about something other than us that seems

852
00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:53,360
to be you know giving us messages right

853
00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:54,380
and

854
00:38:00,160 --> 00:37:56,089
it's interesting what you just said

855
00:38:01,509 --> 00:38:00,170
about the empirical aspect of it let's

856
00:38:03,130 --> 00:38:01,519
explore that a little bit further and

857
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:03,140
maybe I'll roll this back into the show

858
00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:06,650
but tell us how you think there's a

859
00:38:12,459 --> 00:38:09,079
little bit of a difference there in how

860
00:38:16,449 --> 00:38:12,469
we experience this as opposed to like an

861
00:38:18,249 --> 00:38:16,459
out-of-body experience well you know

862
00:38:21,459 --> 00:38:18,259
with an out-of-body experience

863
00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:21,469
that is an internal experience that at

864
00:38:25,509 --> 00:38:23,569
best you know have some political

865
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:25,519
component to it you see something out of

866
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:27,529
the body that you couldn't have seen if

867
00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:29,930
you were in the body but fundamentally

868
00:38:37,029 --> 00:38:32,420
it's a subjective you know into interior

869
00:38:38,620 --> 00:38:37,039
experience with cn Pease be one of the

870
00:38:40,749 --> 00:38:38,630
things that makes them so different from

871
00:38:43,150 --> 00:38:40,759
other things that we're studying in

872
00:38:46,329 --> 00:38:43,160
terms of the paranormal if these are

873
00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:46,339
objectives there's a khole events just

874
00:38:51,099 --> 00:38:48,529
to nail that down a little bit so when

875
00:38:53,140 --> 00:38:51,109
you're in the water brigade you're in

876
00:38:55,930 --> 00:38:53,150
the water brigade with ten other people

877
00:38:58,059 --> 00:38:55,940
or five hover many there are and they

878
00:39:00,660 --> 00:38:58,069
can all right say yes that really

879
00:39:04,509 --> 00:39:00,670
happened when you have the experience of

880
00:39:08,349 --> 00:39:04,519
being inside the Simpsons episode of the

881
00:39:10,749 --> 00:39:08,359
Krusty the Klown episode then every

882
00:39:13,269 --> 00:39:10,759
millions of people can watch the Krusty

883
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:13,279
the Klown episode and say yeah that

884
00:39:17,259 --> 00:39:14,690
really happened and they could have

885
00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:17,269
videotaped you out at the park and said

886
00:39:21,579 --> 00:39:19,400
yeah that same thing happens so there is

887
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:21,589
this this difference there isn't there

888
00:39:26,709 --> 00:39:25,249
right and a lot of the events of cmts I

889
00:39:30,609 --> 00:39:26,719
found through going back and checking

890
00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:30,619
are recorded their emails their their a

891
00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:32,660
television show they're things that

892
00:39:37,779 --> 00:39:35,420
don't rely on people's reporting so here

893
00:39:43,209 --> 00:39:37,789
we have objective often recorded

894
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:43,219
physical events that you know we have to

895
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:45,920
explain how they came together while

896
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:49,190
being so unbelievably similar and so in

897
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:51,920
the end that the you know the the import

898
00:39:55,359 --> 00:39:54,170
of the phenomenon is a bit different

899
00:39:56,829 --> 00:39:55,369
than with something like an out-of-body

900
00:40:01,449 --> 00:39:56,839
experience or an NDE

901
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:01,459
or past life memory where those things

902
00:40:06,900 --> 00:40:04,400
are suggestive of unusual human

903
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:06,910
abilities or suggestive of

904
00:40:11,130 --> 00:40:09,400
you know our ultimate nature as humans

905
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:11,140
maybe were in material and could survive

906
00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:11,680
death

907
00:40:17,279 --> 00:40:15,369
this phenomenon instead is suggestive it

908
00:40:19,950 --> 00:40:17,289
seems to me of something other than us

909
00:40:22,020 --> 00:40:19,960
something that seems could be sending us

910
00:40:23,549 --> 00:40:22,030
messages whether that be God or

911
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:23,559
something else like a collective

912
00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:25,510
unconscious or you know who knows you

913
00:40:30,059 --> 00:40:28,180
know aliens whatever I'm just not quite

914
00:40:32,279 --> 00:40:30,069
sure that we can make that last leap

915
00:40:33,809 --> 00:40:32,289
because there's this whole idea one of

916
00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:33,819
time that we talked about and

917
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:36,400
precognition but also just in terms of

918
00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:40,079
being you and I and whoever being

919
00:40:44,490 --> 00:40:42,760
co-creators of our reality so we get

920
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:44,500
back to this idea of what's reality and

921
00:40:49,710 --> 00:40:47,770
how is reality being created and

922
00:40:51,809 --> 00:40:49,720
experienced and again what's our

923
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:51,819
relationship to time are we in the

924
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:54,010
future creating our reality of the past

925
00:40:58,620 --> 00:40:56,770
I mean but I do get your point yeah we

926
00:41:01,589 --> 00:40:58,630
shouldn't act like anything's pursuing

927
00:41:04,829 --> 00:41:01,599
it as yet however I think that there is

928
00:41:07,020 --> 00:41:04,839
a contemporary bias even among those of

929
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:07,030
us who were into the paranormal a bias

930
00:41:14,579 --> 00:41:09,970
against sort of agents that are beyond

931
00:41:16,589 --> 00:41:14,589
the human you know maybe if we take NDE

932
00:41:19,319 --> 00:41:16,599
seriously for instance it looks like

933
00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:19,329
that experience involves a certain

934
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:21,670
amount of initiative from the other side

935
00:41:26,339 --> 00:41:24,250
maybe something coming to the human

936
00:41:29,849 --> 00:41:26,349
level from the other side is part of how

937
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:29,859
that works great well the book again is

938
00:41:34,049 --> 00:41:32,020
signs we'll have a link to it up here on

939
00:41:35,789 --> 00:41:34,059
the website Robert it's been great

940
00:41:38,519 --> 00:41:35,799
having you on thanks for joining us oh

941
00:41:40,260 --> 00:41:38,529
thank you so much for having me thanks

942
00:41:42,210 --> 00:41:40,270
again to robert Parry for joining me

943
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:42,220
today on skeptic oh you know there's a

944
00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:44,770
couple of questions that I pull out of

945
00:41:49,260 --> 00:41:47,140
this interview and ask for your response

946
00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:49,270
on love to hear your opinion on these

947
00:41:54,059 --> 00:41:52,270
the first has to do with synchronicity

948
00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:54,069
you know we've never talked about it on

949
00:41:58,859 --> 00:41:56,230
this show so perhaps it would be

950
00:42:00,299 --> 00:41:58,869
interesting to hear your experiences

951
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:00,309
with it whether you think it's real

952
00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:02,319
whether you think it's a pattern

953
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:04,150
matching brain kind of thing which it

954
00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:06,430
certainly is in some cases but is there

955
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:08,380
any real nough stew it up does it ever

956
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:11,140
go beyond the normal to the paranormal

957
00:42:15,210 --> 00:42:13,450
and the second question i teed up has to

958
00:42:17,010 --> 00:42:15,220
do at this point that robert made at the

959
00:42:20,010 --> 00:42:17,020
end which i think is a fascinating point

960
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:20,020
and that is is there a bias against

961
00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:20,610
theory

962
00:42:25,790 --> 00:42:23,640
that suggests this hand of God kind of

963
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:25,800
phenomena and as Robert points out it

964
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:27,780
doesn't always have to be God upon a

965
00:42:33,250 --> 00:42:29,490
cloud or anything like that but this

966
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:33,260
idea that there may be these external

967
00:42:38,030 --> 00:42:35,790
non-physical influences that are

968
00:42:41,930 --> 00:42:38,040
directing our life in a certain way is

969
00:42:44,210 --> 00:42:41,940
there a built-in bias against even

970
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:44,220
considering theories like that I think

971
00:42:47,630 --> 00:42:45,570
that's a really interesting point I'd

972
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,640
love to hear your thoughts on it the way

973
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:48,960
to share those thoughts are either

974
00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:51,450
through the skeptical form on the

975
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:54,300
website email to me Facebook to me all

976
00:43:01,160 --> 00:42:56,880
that stuff you can find at The Skeptical

977
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:01,170
website it's at sk EPT Iko comm and

978
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:02,910
there you'll also find links to all our

979
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:04,770
previous shows so you can get caught up

980
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:06,960
on all the back episodes of skeptic oh

981
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:10,170
it's always so fun to get emails from

982
00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:12,000
people who say hey I just stumbled

983
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:14,280
across the show and I found that there's

984
00:43:17,810 --> 00:43:16,170
all these back episodes and I'm

985
00:43:21,050 --> 00:43:17,820
listening to them and you can kind of

986
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:21,060
reacts perience them going through and

987
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:22,500
going through the same journey that I've

988
00:43:28,370 --> 00:43:25,050
been on over these four or five years

989
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:28,380
now in doing skeptic oh so if you are

990
00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:30,180
inclined to do that or you know someone

991
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:31,980
who'd liked it maybe listen to some of

992
00:43:35,570 --> 00:43:34,110
those old shows please tell them about

993
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,580
it that's what they're there for

994
00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:37,200
so with that I just want to let you know

995
00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:38,940
I have a number of shows coming up I'm

996
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:40,830
gonna probably get be bringing them out

997
00:43:45,620 --> 00:43:42,810
every week for a while because I do have

998
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:45,630
several in the hopper and I need to get

999
00:43:48,590 --> 00:43:47,370
caught up so I can do some more

1000
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,600
interviews because I have so many

1001
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:50,400
interviews out there that I want to do

1002
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:52,770
so you might have to pick up your pace

1003
00:43:59,150 --> 00:43:55,470
of skeptical listening for a while here